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Thursday, September 01, 2005

A Couple of Quotes For ctindel

"If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary."

James Madison-Federalist

"...the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God."

Thomas Jefferson-Note to Roger Weightman on June 24, 1826 (just ten days before he died)


Blogger ctindel said...

Wow, a post just for me!

As noted in one of my comments on your earlier article, and as evinced by the recent events in New Orleans, when the basic necessities of life disappear, people will start killing each other. So, I'll say it yet again:

The main purpose of government is to ensure that the basic necessities of life exist, obviating the need for otherwise rational, peaceful beings to kill each other. Of course it also exists to stop psychopaths, but such people are only noticeable once things are relatively under control anyway.

We can honestly say that government failed its constituents by creating a city that is below sea level, in the flood plain of a huge river, right next to a gulf that is regularly ravaged by hurricanes, and by knowingly doing nothing when told that the support systems couldn't withstand anything more than a category 3 hurricane. I mean, what did they think would happen? Of course pandemonium will break out if the government fails to provide the basic necesseties of life!

As for TJ, you have quite a knack for posting meaningless political rhetoric. Throughout all of history there have been the few that have benefited by stepping on the backs of the many. First it was Kings and Pharoahs, then it was the aristocracy, and now it is corporate managers. I just read that Capellas is going to get a $40 million severance package after the Quest-Verizon merger. Because his $14 million bonus for convincing HP to buy the failing Compaq wasn't big enough. And let's not even talk about what Carly got. Meanwhile, employees have been a salary freeze (the ones who aren't getting laid off), and the corporate performance bonus has been destroyed. While it might not be their Flying-Spaghetti-Monster-Given right, it's going to happen no matter what anybody says.

Pssshhh... quoting a slave owner talking about individual liberty... that is almost, hmmmmm.... no, that IS laughable. Thomas Jefferson not only had the boots and spurs, but the chaps and jockey whip to match.

Your Humble Server,


11:27 PM

Blogger The Plumber said...

The government's first responsibility is to protect private property from bad people. If someone shoots me, then he has violated my private property. Same with looters. People who are taught to respect private property don't kill without provocation or loot, or rape. If the government cannot protect private property from bad people, then it is illegitimate.

The government (neither Fed, State, or Local) didn't force anybody to live in N.O.. Hells bells, I don't live anywhere near the place and I knew it would be hit sooner or later. They were warned (for decades) and they ignored it. C'est la vie.

There I go again with my outdated ideas of individual liberty and personal responsibility again. Sorry, I know it's a bad habit.

I too am distressed about the corruption and greed of the high officers in some of the large corporations. J.P. Morgan had a rule that the highest paid employee never made more than 11 times the lowest paid worker. Makes you wish there were more Morgan's around, huh?

Is Jefferson wrong? What if Ghandi or the Dhali Lama had said it? The slavery thing is a cheap shot :(

1:50 AM

Blogger ctindel said...

I'm not disagreeing with you on the illegitimacy of government or on personal responsibility. What happened in NO is tragic, but you're absolutely right. I suppose if horsetooth damn collapsed and fort collins was underwater we'd be asking for help too.

I'm all for freedom of companies to do whatever they want to do, and if they want to pay management up the wazoo, that is their right. It is kind of disgusting to see managers getting huge bonuses while employees get laid off because the economy is bad and the company isn't meeting its numbers. So you think JP Morgan himself only made 11 times what the janitor made? HIGHLY DOUBTFUL.

Jefferson is partially wrong, in that all of known recorded history shows that there are always groups with power and those without power. It is the natural way for animals to organize themselves; being said by slave-owner Jefferson only makes him into a hypocrite. The part where he's right is that people aren't born with power by the grace of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but perhaps more by sheer dumb luck of picking the right parents.

That doesn't change the fact that there are the privileged few, and everybody else. It's just that now the privileged few are the ones born into politics or the corporate ladder, as opposed to monarchs or aristocrats.

10:17 AM

Blogger The Plumber said...

JP Morgan wasn't an employee.

You make good points on the rest of your comments and I won't disagree with your assessment.

11:01 AM

Blogger The Plumber said...

Here is a quick read.

11:12 AM

Blogger ctindel said...

JP Morgan was one of the main force behind the Trusts that caused so many problems back in the day. If he was against paying his employees well, then it was because he just wanted more to himself. I'm assuming he was an employee of the corporation (CEO?), and exempted himself from his 11-times rule. No, I don't think we need more robber barons like JP Morgan around.

If you're trying to convince me that our current welfare system is an abysmal failure then you're preaching to the choir. The US Government would do well to do away permanent-welfare and social security entirely.

11:28 AM


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